User talk:Dsammy

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Debbie's Discussion Page

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When posting questions or messages, please put them at the top, not at the bottom. Thank you. Dsammy

Thank you Sammy thank you for coming over to the JSMB from the Library. Thank you for being willing to help me fix a problem I made on San Juan Co. Utah. I consider you my friend. . Thank you Sammy.  You may want to change your heading it says "Debbies  Discussion Page" Dawne 20:02, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

 I will be happy too, on the navigation bar once you have signed in, the Nav bar brings up a + sign, in the Wiki that takes you to the bottom of a Talk page, proper Wiki etiquette is to put a conversation at the bottom of the page. If you want someone to leave a message at the top ypu may want to put something up at the top of your Talk page so people know your personal perference. Dawne 21:25, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

My preference is latest message at the top. The page has became longer. I already saw severa editors at Wikipedia who state what messages to be posted on their user pages instead of standard bottom feeder. Dsammy 23:25, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

INav bar at bottom

When going on the using browser Explorer I note the search box is at the very bottom of the project page. I have no idea how to move that back up but I know you do Sammy. Thank you for all your work on New York on setting up a project! Dawne 18:15, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Sent msg to Cottrell to fix the glitch. Dsammy 19:44, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Courthouse Pictures

Hi DSammy,

While I am adding the courthouse pictures to the counties that don't have them, I thought I would go ahead and add the pictures to the County Courthouse page of which you said you were going to add content. (In our meeting you indicated you would do all the county courthouse pages) If you don't like the way I am adding the picture, let me know now, because I am on a roll. I will be selective in the picture selected and choose the one I feel is the best. thank you, diane

Here's the problem since I already discussed with Dilts - when adoption sign is added, it throw the whole section out of whack and the 3rd and more images threw the browsers out of whack. Not all browsers treat them same way, because of different monitors. By the way photo is already in the courthouse page. And I will be removing duplicates of photos, the entire files of courthouse images have been categorized and lots of duplicates showed up. Another problem is IRAD link is on Courthouse page already. What you listed is 3 links too close together to confuse the visitor. Dsammy 16:26, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
Added note - there is no need to list credit for images because the credits are built into the image file itself. I will be working on them to clean up and make them similiar to what Dilts have learned from me, who in turn, learned from Cottrell. Here's the example (you need to click image to see the rest of file
Emigrant trails western map.png Dsammy 16:55, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


Hi DSammy,

I just wanted to let you know I am using the David Dilts style as far as world cat entries are concerned. I am typing and linking them in as David does and adding a phrase that Marilyn uses because it makes sense. We are calling it Other libraries (WorldCat) because most people have no idea what WorldCat is and "other libraries" describes what they will be linking to. We added (WorldCat) so that they could get used to the idea of what WorldCat is.

Of course, we all have differing opinions and I am not writing by way of asking permission, but to let you know this is what I am doing and I would prefer that you don't change it unless you have a really good reason for doing so.

Thank you, Diane Rogers

Don't know what you are talking about, you haven't given me examples. The only concern I had with Dilts is about using url address instead of template, causing the pages to bloat unnecessary. I know he didn't like the number being visible. Dsammy 22:05, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Would it not be better, as Sammy mentioned, to use {{WorldCat}} instead? I could change the template to display "Other libraries (WorldCat)..." or something like that. Thomas_Lerman 14:59, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
It would be redundant since the WorldCat says "Find the book in a Library" using Dilts method (using whole url instead of template and hiding the record ID). And Dilts method will NOT show the book being available in OTHER formats, while my preference will show all formats. Handybook for Genealogists in particular is available in ebook and on CD. There are other formats also available including microfilms. Basically the WorldCat problem is NOT really resolved yet even if it is same edition. Dsammy 16:26, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

New York project

Hi Dsammy (New York moderator),

Four Family History Library US/Canada reference consultants will be working to upgrade Wiki's New York pages over the next several months:

  • User:HendricksonP (Patsy Hendrickson)
  • User:HarrisonJB (Jason Harrison)
  • User:BingamanTD (Tim Bingaman)
  • User:Diltsgd (David Dilts)

We ask you to be patient with the changes we make through the end of this year. If we do something you dislike, please contact us before rolling it back to see if we can come to an agreement.

Thanks, DiltsGD 18:46, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

You didn't bother to check this out FamilySearch_Wiki:WikiProject_New_York , did you? It listed what needed to be done before there can be any major expansion. Dsammy 21:54, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

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Illinois for FGS


Just wanted to say thanks for your help on the IRAD pages. I think with the community's help they are looking good. Thanks for your input. Mcbridelw 11 Aug 2011. McBrideLW

David, As you can tell we are working with Lise Embley on the county pages. They are holding a contest until the end of June for links and content. The US Research Consultants are entering them. Danielle is the team lead working with Lise Embley.

With this structure, we are also trying to upgrade some of the subjects. Right now, some of us have certain assignments. We would appreciate your patience with us. If you have questions, you can ask me anything and I will try to answer your queries. Please don't move the items from the discussion pages to the page until we have we have complete the information gathering.

There are 7 IRADS leaders. The leaders are going to be updating Vital Records, Probate Records, and Land Records. Jeff Blaylock is updating Census Records for the Counties, Beth Taylor is updating Historical Facts. Diane Rogers is updating the County Template box. Please don't change the information. We can discuss what may need to be looked at, but we don't need to be redoing things.

County template, - you meant infobox. lot of empty lines we don't use and coord is my area at same time installing locality template. The only concern is listing email address in there. We aren't babysitters and constantly changing to keep up to date. Email addresses aren't as stable as physical addresses. Best to leave off email address completely. I looked elsewhere outside of Wiki, more specifically Wikipedia where the infobox concept come from - they don't list email addresses. It is responsibility of county courthouses or whatever the official organization is to keep theirs up to date on their own websites. We just link to them. And can you explain to Diane Rogers that < BR > and < br > have exact same function regardless whether they are capitalized or not. I noticed she changes them from caps to lower case. As for Beth Taylor, I will be beating her to changing the heading from Quick Facts, History or whatever it is to "Historical Facts" when installing locality template.

We were wondering if there was a topic in the county you would like to work on? We could have you report and mark of the x's on our chart. I look forward to improving the counties with you.pnh 21:46, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Locality Template is what I am doing and after installment, I check to clean out non-functioning codes and fix headings to bring them up to date. Some are still using "Local Histories", resizing Historical Facts and clean up infobox clutter (many empty lines not used for Illinois.)
After discussion with David Dilts and working through, realized not many are familiar with Mailing Lists and Message Boards, I will tackle this AFTER I finish with Locality Templates. Dsammy 07:37, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

County Topic Discussion

Hi David,

Did you know there are a couple of discussions going on about the topics on the county pages. You may want to comment on them. One discussion is at I wanted you to be aware of the comments. pnh 20:23, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Already aware of it, only now it is a burst of activity since I mentioned the lack of communication to staff at FHL last Tuesday.

User Pages

Hi David,

I'd love to hear your thoughts about the importance of user pages. Can you take a minute and add your thoughts on the Forum thread I've started? Lise 02:16, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


FamilySearch Wiki:WikiProject New York

Static presentation on the Wiki

Hi Dsammy,

Back in March you asked about a static presentation on the Wiki. Since then you are probably aware of the one we have,  but you can find them by searching for the word "Teach" in the Wiki search box. It should be the first result, but if you can't find it, here is the link to the teaching aids page. nixiao 21:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

My stuff

Just my stuff I get or need to list for quick actions.

Unassigned Links

Character Table: Hold down Alt and number

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) = 41 * = 42 + = 43 , = 44 - = 45 . = 46 / = 47  ; + 59 < = 60 = - 61
 ? = 63 @ = 64 { = 123 | = 124 } = 125 ~ = 126 ⌂ = 127 Ç = 128 ü = 129 é = 130
â = 131 ä = 132 à = 133 å = 134 ç = 135 ê = 136 ë = 137 è = 138 ï = 139 î = 141
Ä = 142 Å = 143 É = 144 æ = 145 Æ = 146 ô = 147 ö = 148 ò = 149 û = 150 ù = 151
ÿ = 152 Ö = 153 Ü = 154 ¢ = 155 £ = 156 ¥ = 157 ₧ = 158 ƒ = 159 á = 160 í - 161
ó = 162 ú = 163 ñ = 164 Ñ = 165 ª = 166 º = 167 ¿ = 168 ⌐ = 169 ¬ = 170 ½ = 171
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α = 224 ß = 225 ≈ = 247 • = 263 œ = 0156 © = 0169 ® = 0174 € = 0128 ™ = 0153 Š = 0138
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We need your opinion

In order to help the community arrive at consensus on some issues impacting most of the pages on FamilySearch Wiki, I'd like to invite you to add your opinions to the following discussions:

FamilySearch Wiki talk:Format for Citing and Linking to Works in FHLC, Worldcat (OCLC) at

FamilySearch Wiki talk:Consensus at

FamilySearch Wiki talk:Source Citation Formats at

FamilySearch Wiki talk:Disambiguation at

Thanks! Ritcheymt 11:51, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Ethnic Groups change proposal

There is already a long-standing category for Ethnic, Political, or Religious Groups. That topic is broader than the more narrowly focused Ethnic Groups category. In order to avoid duplication, I suggest that all ethnic groups should be moved to the broader category from the category "Ethnic Groups," and then then the more narrow category be deleted. Diltsgd 01:37, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

That is a problem. There are many ethnic groups who are adverse to being labeled political or religious alongside with ethnic. This came up in a meeting I had last Wednesday. It belongs separately. Here's this description of ethnic group - "An ethnic group is a group of humans whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or presumed." That's from the Wikipedia. I would be adverse if I were to be part of German group with religion label. Dsammy 02:36, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
The category could have been called just Groups but no one would have understood, so it got the longer title. The category is for all three kinds of groups. It is not just for people that are all three kinds at once. The category is for groups that are either one of the three. So Germans can be an ethnic group, Loyalists can be a political group, and Huguenots can be a religious group. The category allows genealogists to find any kind of human group about which there may be special records. No one is asking an ethnic group to be labelled religious or political if that is not appropriate to their group. We are just trying to fit as many kinds of human groups as possible into one overall category.
It isn't saying you have to be all three at once to fit in the category, it is just saying we think these three fit well together. We also see Acadians, Cajuns, and Creoles, and also the category for Migration Routes that includes (1)Canals, (2)Ports, (3)Railroads, (4)Rivers and Lakes, and (5)Trails and Roads. No one says the only way to get in the Migration Route category is to be all 5 things at once--a clear impossibility. So it is okay to have ethnic, political, and religious groups in one category together because genealogists use their records in all about the same way. In fact genealogically, they fit together so well, it seems strange to me not to have them together. Diltsgd 21:46, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Please see Category talk:Ethnic Groups for extended explanation of how to improve this category and the pages in it. Diltsgd 03:55, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

We would like your input

I am sorry you had to leave from the meeting yesterday as we wanted your input on a subject. Please take a look at the item at this link and please let us know if it satisfies your need. Thomas Lerman 05:40, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Deleted Links

You deleted links on the York County, Virginia page to individual cemeteries and churches deeming them unnecessary. For each cemetery or church, I develop an individual page that has information, history, interments, etc. from that cemetery. I am wondering why you deleted the links? I think it is important that each cemetery and church have an individual page to avoid cluttered county pages. I had asked around and others thought this was a good idea. Let me know what you think and, if you agree, I will restore the links.Gregorybean 00:35, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

You were trying to internalize the links for individual cemeteries, amounting to try to create page for each cemetery. This is a no-no. It's ok to use external links. Likewise lists of names of interments are not allowed at all. That is a database. See this warning: William_Hutchinson:_Firth_Idaho_Entrepreneur posted by the Sysops.

To get better idea of how the cemeteries are linked at least 3 different ways...
1. Salem, Oregon (the cemeteries within the city)
2. Washington County, Maryland (separate page, but very intensive and unexpandable)
3. Bourne, Massachusetts

The objective of the FSWiki is to be a research resource, not a dumping place for datasets/databases, nor queries.

Eventually you will want to research more on the cemeteries in York County because I believe there are more  cemeteries not listed in I kept finding more and more cemeteries not listed in for New York state alone, already identified over 7,000 and estimate of at least 3,000 un-named marks shown on the GNIS.

I listed 4 more cemeteries for the independent city of Poquoson because they were within the boundaries of the city. The Poquoson Cemetery is outside of the city. Dsammy 03:16, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

The church lists, can not be linked internally individually, either for same reasons.  Dsammy 03:16, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I guess I am not understanding how individual pages for cemeteries is a "data set" that should not be included and how the page marked for deletion you referenced applies. I feel that individual pages for cemeteries adds to the purpose of the Wiki, to help users “find, use, and analyze” the records in individual cemeteries.

Outside links may not be helpful to researchers for a few reasons.

1. There may be no outside link to a cemetery
2. The information on the outside link may be inaccurate or inadequate
3. Outside links may become broken or the outside page may be deleted altogether

It seems natural that Wiki contributors could create a page, using outside links in addition to non-internet sources, that would have important information like a map, pictures, a history of the cemetery, dates of earliest and latest interments, activity of the cemetery, etc. It seems like it would make for a more consistent and thorough family history research experience to be able to collect information from multiple sources to create a thorough and expandable page for each cemetery.

Forcing the use of outside links means making Wiki contributors donate the information to these outside sites instead of internalizing it and creating a new page. It seems cumbersome to do this when the Wiki is the perfect place to post the information. Can you explain the underlying principle for not allowing individual pages?

That is the price of FSWiki. Small pages serve no purposes for individual cemeteries. And datasets meaning the lists of names, dates of burials, etc, which is not allowed. Exclusion of the outside links will discourage anyone from putting up their own sites with data they have direct control over. What you are requesting is that we force/strong-arm the cemetery owners as well as the database owners to post on the FSWiki. That's is plain and simple and we don't want to do that. The Sysops has reiterated again and again we need to reach out and get more cooperation instead of forcing everythin internally. dsammy 08:07, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
As you move out of eastern Virginia, you will find a great deal of cemeteries aren't even linked to any specific church. When there are ones, they're usually small except for the Roman Catholic cemeteries generally and the ones that are linked are usually small and defunct churches with no records. dsammy 08:12, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I have had this discussion with others. See Talk:United States Cemeteries. I have also posted this discussion at FamilySearch Wiki talk:Purpose and Appropriate Topics. I recognize that there people have differing views on what and what is not appropriate. I have invested a lot of time on creating individual cemetery pages, so I hope you understand why I am impassioned about their existence. Thank you for your help in this matter.Gregorybean 07:28, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Where should wikiproject contributors communicate?

People who work on writing projects on the wiki are asking for an online venue they can use to talk about...

  • how to organize projects,
  • how and where to recruit contributors
  • how to motivate project members
  • how to track progress on projects
  • Manual of Style issues that we need to settle to avoid rework
  • ...and other stuff.

Could you go to the wiki feedback forum and give your opinion as to what tool(s) we should choose to communicate? The thread where we will discuss this is Which tools for wikiproject contributors to communicate? Ritcheymt 16:24, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

What should the Manual of Style include and how should it look?

I have moved the discussion items from the Manual of Style page to the discussion page, and begun an outline for items to be covered in the MOS.  It is kind of a dramatic (read: VERY "bold") change, and I would appreciate feedback, contributions, suggestions, discussion. Lise 14:30, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

How to link to county histories on BYU Digital Archives?

Hey Sammy, if you were to make a link from a county page to a digitized county history on BYU Digital Archives, how would you make it? Would the use of a template make it so that if the path to the histories were changed by Webmasters, it'd be easy to fix the many broken wiki links by fixing one template? Ritcheymt 22:46, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

ONLY if there is a specific ID link-locked to specific record, then template can be done. That is the ONLY key to a workable template. Same is with Family History Catalog, still waiting for FHLC catalogers to make up their mind as to what specific ID is going to be! Sooner the better. dsammy 23:22, 30 November 2009 (UTC)