Difference between revisions of "Talk:United Kingdom, Chelsea Pensioners' Service Records (FamilySearch Historical Records)"

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{{records question}} I have submitted this feedback via the footer "Leave Feedback" link, but I thought I would also note the request on this discussion page. This article is named {{xt|United Kingdom, Chelsea Pensioners' Service Records (FamilySearch Historical Records)}}, and include records from soldiers from all parts of Britain, yet the collection listed under the filter for "England". If would be more appropriate to change this to the "United Kingdom" filter. --[[User:Cottrells|Steve]] {{toolbar|[[User talk:Cottrells|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Cottrells|contribs]]}} 17:20, 10 May 2012 (UTC)  
 
{{records question}} I have submitted this feedback via the footer "Leave Feedback" link, but I thought I would also note the request on this discussion page. This article is named {{xt|United Kingdom, Chelsea Pensioners' Service Records (FamilySearch Historical Records)}}, and include records from soldiers from all parts of Britain, yet the collection listed under the filter for "England". If would be more appropriate to change this to the "United Kingdom" filter. --[[User:Cottrells|Steve]] {{toolbar|[[User talk:Cottrells|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Cottrells|contribs]]}} 17:20, 10 May 2012 (UTC)  
  
The United Kingdom and Britain are not one and the same thing. The United Kingdom consists of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Britain consists of England, Wales and Scotland. As far as I am aware WO97 only includes records for soldiers from England and Wales. It is certainly wrong to label this a UK collection as the collection covers the period prior to 1922 before Northern Ireland became a separate country.  [[User:DebbieKennett|DebbieKennett]] 10:47, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
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The United Kingdom and Britain are not one and the same thing. The United Kingdom consists of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Britain consists of England, Wales and Scotland. As far as I am aware WO97 only includes records for soldiers from England and Wales. It is certainly wrong to label this a UK collection as the collection covers the period prior to 1922 before Northern Ireland became a separate country.  [[User:DebbieKennett|DebbieKennett]] 10:47, 27 May 2012 (UTC)  
  
:Hi Debbie, I agree that terms need to be defined to overcome misunderstandings. See the article [[British Isles]] for a diagram that tries to help.  
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:Hi Debbie, I agree that terms need to be defined to overcome misunderstandings. See the article [[British Isles]] for a diagram that tries to help.
  
 
:The terms as you define them; the [[United Kingdom]] covering [[England]], [[Wales]], [[Scotland]] and [[Northern Ireland]] is the current sovereign state (full name '''United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland''') which is also sometimes referred to as [[Britain]]. When you say that ''Britain consists of England, Wales and Scotland'', I think you are referring to that in a geographic sense, meaning the island of {{wpd|Great Britain}} which does not include [[Ireland]] or [[Northern Ireland]].
 
:The terms as you define them; the [[United Kingdom]] covering [[England]], [[Wales]], [[Scotland]] and [[Northern Ireland]] is the current sovereign state (full name '''United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland''') which is also sometimes referred to as [[Britain]]. When you say that ''Britain consists of England, Wales and Scotland'', I think you are referring to that in a geographic sense, meaning the island of {{wpd|Great Britain}} which does not include [[Ireland]] or [[Northern Ireland]].
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:As for the collection only including records from England and Wales, here are some examples from [https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V5H5-67F Ireland] and [https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V5C9-HJ5 Scotland]. --[[User:Cottrells|Steve]] {{toolbar|[[User talk:Cottrells|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Cottrells|contribs]]}} 12:23, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
 
:As for the collection only including records from England and Wales, here are some examples from [https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V5H5-67F Ireland] and [https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V5C9-HJ5 Scotland]. --[[User:Cottrells|Steve]] {{toolbar|[[User talk:Cottrells|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Cottrells|contribs]]}} 12:23, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
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::The terminology is indeed very confusing! Here's the relevantpage from the National Archives catalogue:
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http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/records/C14305-royal-hospital-chelsea-soldiers-service-collection
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I note that TNA refer to the British Army. It sounds as though W097 does actually include records for Scotland and Ireland after all. I think it's best to follow the terminology used by TNA. For the sake of clarity I think it's best to avoid use of the terms UK and Britain altogether as they meant different things at different times and people need to know what the collection contains. There's a Wikipedia article which explains the different terminology:
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_(terminology)
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[[User:DebbieKennett|DebbieKennett]] 00:02, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

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I have submitted this feedback via the footer "Leave Feedback" link, but I thought I would also note the request on this discussion page. This article is named United Kingdom, Chelsea Pensioners' Service Records (FamilySearch Historical Records), and include records from soldiers from all parts of Britain, yet the collection listed under the filter for "England". If would be more appropriate to change this to the "United Kingdom" filter. --Steve (talk| contribs) 17:20, 10 May 2012 (UTC) 

The United Kingdom and Britain are not one and the same thing. The United Kingdom consists of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Britain consists of England, Wales and Scotland. As far as I am aware WO97 only includes records for soldiers from England and Wales. It is certainly wrong to label this a UK collection as the collection covers the period prior to 1922 before Northern Ireland became a separate country.  DebbieKennett 10:47, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi Debbie, I agree that terms need to be defined to overcome misunderstandings. See the article British Isles for a diagram that tries to help.
The terms as you define them; the United Kingdom covering England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland is the current sovereign state (full name United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) which is also sometimes referred to as Britain. When you say that Britain consists of England, Wales and Scotland, I think you are referring to that in a geographic sense, meaning the island of Great Britain which does not include Ireland or Northern Ireland.
The Chelsea Pensioners' Service Records 1760-1913 covers a period (1760-1800) when the British Army was part of the Kingdom of Great Britain, but also the period (1801-1913) when it was part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Therefore perhaps the best title for this collection would be British Army, Chelsea Pensioners' Service Records (FamilySearch Historical Records). I also stand by my comment that the collection would be better placed under the filter United Kingdom rather than just England as it is now.
As for the collection only including records from England and Wales, here are some examples from Ireland and Scotland. --Steve (talk| contribs) 12:23, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
The terminology is indeed very confusing! Here's the relevantpage from the National Archives catalogue:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/records/C14305-royal-hospital-chelsea-soldiers-service-collection

I note that TNA refer to the British Army. It sounds as though W097 does actually include records for Scotland and Ireland after all. I think it's best to follow the terminology used by TNA. For the sake of clarity I think it's best to avoid use of the terms UK and Britain altogether as they meant different things at different times and people need to know what the collection contains. There's a Wikipedia article which explains the different terminology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_(terminology)

DebbieKennett 00:02, 31 May 2012 (UTC)