We are considering deleting this page but would like input. Much of the information is out of date and we feel it doesn't fit the scope of the Wiki.Lynda 17:54, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Please explain in greater detail what makes this page not fit the scope of the Wiki. Has someone complained that it mentions FamilySearch products? Or is the complaint that it talks about Latter-day Saints? Help me to understand what it is in this article that hurts the goals of the Wiki, or hurts the genealogical Wiki community, or what makes it outside the Wiki scope.
Rather than deleting out-of-date material, we could fix it with the correct information. But the reason I've hesitated to do that is fear that it would draw attention to this page and make it subject to exactly this kind of (out of scope) deletion request. The censorship hawks are far more zealous about FamilySearch products than almost any other subjects in the Wiki, and updating this page would involve descriptions of products they would not tolerate.
We have conflicting Wiki policies. One policy says the Wiki must have a neutral point of view. Another Wiki policy would suppress any mention FamilySearch products. And yet another policy would suppress almost any mention of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. These latter two policies are obviously NOT neutral.
We want the Wiki to be neutral because we want the Wiki to be a community tool. We don't want it to be overtly LDS piece of property. And we don't want it to be an overtly LDS missionary tool. Either of those would detract from the Wiki's community oriented purpose.
But deleting almost every reference to the LDS Church or the LDS reasons for doing genealogy is NOT NEUTRAL and it hurts the genealogical community, and the Wiki more than it helps it. That would be suppression. It would be inherently prejudiced. Unless someone has already deleted most other references to the LDS Church, those references have been kept low-key. They did not leave an impression that the purpose of the Wiki was to promote the LDS Church or its products.
The policy against mentioning FamilySearch products has a "silo-building" feel to it. But there it is, in all its non-neutrality, Wiki-community-damaging glory.
I'm willing to work on making this article fit within the scope of the Wiki. I would like to work with the person suggesting it is outside the scope of the Wiki (is it you Lynda?) until we can come to an agreement that it is finally acceptable and within the scope of the Wiki. I would rather fix useful Wiki pages than delete them. DiltsGD 23:11, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
- David, I understand your passion about this page and those like it. The problem is not so much with FamilySearch products as with the doctrinal issue here. I'm still wondering if the page could be fixed so that the information needed by the LDS community could be accomplished by a link to those instructions in nFS or FamilySearch.org? You're right that we shouldn't delete every reference to the LDS church. What do you think about the linking idea?
By the way, I'm the Team Lead on the Wiki support team and work directly with Janell. I asked Michael about this page and he said to work with you. I know you two had a conversation about it previously. You do so much for the Wiki and I admire you for that. I just hope we can reach a compromise here.Lynda 18:42, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- This page has been revised to meet the scope of the Wiki and we appreciate David's willingness to do this. There is good information here for members of the LDS Church and we appreciate that it can be helpful to them and might be of interest to those who are not members. Thanks, David.Lynda 16:08, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
Remove this page
No, this page is not within the wiki's scope and must be removed. (See FamilySearch Wiki:Purpose and Appropriate Topics.)
The very topic of preparing names for LDS temple ordinances is outside the wiki's scope. There is no way to write or re-write such a page that would put it within the wiki's scope.
The issue has nothing to do with mentioning FamilySearch products. There is no policy that "suppress[es] any mention [of] FamilySearch products." There is no problem mentioning LDS products or leading people to them in order to do research. The only issue with LDS products is that the wiki is not a place to create product-support content for LDS products. The repository for product-support information on LDS products is the Help Center (Kanisa/Knova). Should anyone want to discuss the strategic "why" behind that decision, they can contact me and I'll be happy to elaborate.
The problem with this article is that it prompts people to perform a religious practice. It is applicable only to Mormons, a very small group within the genealogical community. It yields a feeling that is outside the spirit that the executive leaders of this site desire for the site. The spirit we want for the wiki is that folks are welcome here regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof, and that Mormons 1) won't use this site as a platform to peddle our religious practices and 2) won't taint our instructions on how to find one's ancestors with Mormon-only instructions that are not applicable to people of other faiths.
This page runs afoul of the spirit of this wiki because in many non-Mormons, pages like this evoke a feeling that "You've entered Mormon country. This site exists to tell the world to do genealogy the way the Mormons do it." There are plenty of places on FamilySearch where Mormon-specific instructions and processes are welcome, but the wiki is not one of them because we must preserve the kind of atmosphere where people of all faiths feel welcome to contribute. Mormon-specific instructions are not within the spirit or scope of this wiki, and will be removed. RitcheyMT 19:03, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
- Michael, your order to remove the page is very unWiki like. It invokes "executive leaders" as the prime authority rather than community. It implies your personal interpretation of guiding principles/guidelines is somehow undeniably superior to anything I, or any other member of the community, could possibly have in mind. You state that it is impossible to "write or rewrite" it the way you want it. You give absolutely no quarter or way to reach agreement other than accept your interpretative decision.
- But you are not the almighty boss of Wiki -- the commmunity is! Let's invite the community to resolve this dispute. Do you trust the community enough to let them judge what is best for the Wiki, or are you the only one who understands what the "executive leaders" mean? Make your choice between hierarchy and wiki. DiltsGD 07:47, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- What if the title of the page were changed to LDS Genealogy and it were removed from this main series of articles? The content of the page has really been changed to the point that I personally don't see it as a problem anymore. If articles such as African American Genealogy and American Indian Genealogy are ok, would that change in title and removing it from this series then make this article ok to keep? -- janellv 16:17, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Be careful what you ask for
As for Michael's assertion that the page makes people feel they have "entered Mormon country," I would suggest by that measure we would need to take down thousands of Family History Center pages and the page about the Family History Library, we would have to delete the entire set of LDS Records outline pages, and pages like the "Mormon Trail." Some Utah pages might or might not be allowable. And if the same measure is applied to other religions we would have to delete the entire set of Jewish Genealogy Research pages. DiltsGD 02:05, 11 December 2011 (UTC)